Reading through Chapter 4 (Three Stories) of Simple Church, they give examples of three simple churches. I may have to reread to be clear, but it seems at least that all three churches use their Sunday morning worship service as their Connecting to God element. Connecting to People is done at a different time and that time is given much advertisement on Sunday morning. One of those churches was Northpoint with Andy Stanley.
The processes are in stages. Stage one connects you with God, then you are encouraged to stage two. For many of these churches, stage two is growing. I suppose our stage two is connecting with people. So the question is "How do you connect with people?" Is it people in general? Do we want to connect people with their spouse?
And of these three churches, none mentioned have a commitment to connecting locally and globally.
From Northpoint's website: "Our mission is to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. We do so by creating environments where people are encouraged and equipped to pursue intimacy with God, community with insiders, and influence with outsiders." I also noticed the pictures on the website -- three women and Andy Stanley. Not sure what that means unless women are their target.
Reggie Joiner is quoted "Many of our staff had previously been involved with churches that were program-heavy, and we know how quickly things could grow out of control. So we became tenacious about staying simple. In fact, you might be surprised at some of the things we do not do. For example, we don't have a Christian school, midweek services, men and women's ministries, a children's choir, adult Sunday school, Easter or Christmas Pageants, or a recreation ministry."
Going back to the fact that these churches see programs as steps toward their goals, and the circles get smaller and smaller. My hope for a process (and maybe this creates complexity) is that you can move in and out of all four areas, in fact involvement in one area should certainly move you toward another area (for instance Connecting with God may move you to Connect Globally or Connecting with People, perhaps international students, may move you to Connect Globally). But do the steps have to be in order? Does Connecting with God have to come first? No doubt, it has to come, but can we find people Connecting Locally and Connect them with God?
Tuesday, October 23, 2007
Expectations
Here are some quick initial expectations for discipleship.
-Can't be too time consuming though it will require a time commitment.
-Would prefer that it would include cohesive chunks of Scripture (NT Pauline book, portion of a Gospel, OT story) rather than individual Scriptures.
-Discipler has say over how much time spent with each disciple. Some people will take as much time as you will give them. Jesus was very picky with his time.
-Work is split equally over at least three areas (God, relationships, and local). Global may take less priority, although with younger disciples it may become equal.
-Must be flexible and able to be delivered in multiple ways. Some people may commit to regular gatherings; others may only be available along the journey.
-Discipleship delivery becomes the most critical element in the church calendar and programming.
It is interesting to note that a religious discipleship (such as Paul received) was very academic. Paul studied with the best. But Jesus' discipleship was never referred to as academic. Jesus is never recorded to have sent his disciples on quiet times or required them to study the Scriptures, though I assume (maybe wrongly) that they did some of this. But more, they were taught by Jesus and then given an opportunity to apply it practically.
-Can't be too time consuming though it will require a time commitment.
-Would prefer that it would include cohesive chunks of Scripture (NT Pauline book, portion of a Gospel, OT story) rather than individual Scriptures.
-Discipler has say over how much time spent with each disciple. Some people will take as much time as you will give them. Jesus was very picky with his time.
-Work is split equally over at least three areas (God, relationships, and local). Global may take less priority, although with younger disciples it may become equal.
-Must be flexible and able to be delivered in multiple ways. Some people may commit to regular gatherings; others may only be available along the journey.
-Discipleship delivery becomes the most critical element in the church calendar and programming.
It is interesting to note that a religious discipleship (such as Paul received) was very academic. Paul studied with the best. But Jesus' discipleship was never referred to as academic. Jesus is never recorded to have sent his disciples on quiet times or required them to study the Scriptures, though I assume (maybe wrongly) that they did some of this. But more, they were taught by Jesus and then given an opportunity to apply it practically.
Monday, October 22, 2007
When I Became a Christian
When I Became a Christian, by Adrian Plass
When I became a Christian I said, Lord, now fill me in,
Tell me what I’ll suffer in this world of shame and sin.
He said, Your body may be killed, and left to rot and stink,
Do you still want to follow me? I said, Amen! – I think.
I think Amen, Amen I think, I think I say Amen,
I’m not completely sure, can you just run through that again?
You say my body may be killed and left to rot and stink,
Well, yes, that sounds teriffic, Lord, I say Amen – I think.
But , Lord, there must be other ways to follow you, I said,
I really would prefer to end up dying in my bed.
Well, yes, he said, you could put up with sneers and scorn and spit,
Do you still want to follow me? I said, Amen! – a bit.
A bit Amen, Amen a bit, a bit I say Amen,
I’m not completely sure, can you just run through that again?
You say I could put up with sneers and also scorn and spit,
Well, yes, I’ve made my mind up, and I say Amen! – a bit.
Well I sat back and thought a while, then tried a different ploy,
Now, Lord, I said, the Good Book says that Christians live in joy.
That’s true, he said, you need the joy to bear the pain and sorrow,
So do you still want to follow me? I said, Amen! – tomorrow.
Tomorrow, Lord, I’ll say it then, that’s when I’ll say Amen,
I need to get it clear, can I just run through that again?
You said I will need the joy, to bear the pain and sorrow,
Well, yes, I think I’ve got it straight, I’ll say, Amen – tomorrow.
He said, Look, I’m not asking you to spend an hour with me,
A quick salvation sandwich and a cup of sanctity,
The cost is you, not half of you, but every single bit.
Now tell me, will you follow me? I said, Amen! – I quit.
I’m very sorry, Lord, I said, I’d like to follow you,
But I don’t think religion is a manly thing to do.
He said, Forget religion then, and think about my Son,
And tell me if you’re man enough to do what he has done.
Are you man enough to see the need, and man enough to go,
Man enough to care for those whom no one wants to know,
Man enough to say the thing that people hate to hear,
To battle through Gethsemane in lonliness and fear.
And listen! Are you man enough to stand it at the end,
The moment of betrayal by the kisses of a friend,
Are you man enough to hold your tongue, and man enough to cry,
When the nails break your body – are you man enough to die?
Man enough to take the pain, and wear it like a crown,
Man enough to love the world and turn t upside down,
Are you man enough to follow me, I ask you once again.
I said, Oh Lord, I’m frightened, but I also said Amen.
Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen,
I said, Oh Lord, I’m frightened, but I also said, Amen.
When I became a Christian I said, Lord, now fill me in,
Tell me what I’ll suffer in this world of shame and sin.
He said, Your body may be killed, and left to rot and stink,
Do you still want to follow me? I said, Amen! – I think.
I think Amen, Amen I think, I think I say Amen,
I’m not completely sure, can you just run through that again?
You say my body may be killed and left to rot and stink,
Well, yes, that sounds teriffic, Lord, I say Amen – I think.
But , Lord, there must be other ways to follow you, I said,
I really would prefer to end up dying in my bed.
Well, yes, he said, you could put up with sneers and scorn and spit,
Do you still want to follow me? I said, Amen! – a bit.
A bit Amen, Amen a bit, a bit I say Amen,
I’m not completely sure, can you just run through that again?
You say I could put up with sneers and also scorn and spit,
Well, yes, I’ve made my mind up, and I say Amen! – a bit.
Well I sat back and thought a while, then tried a different ploy,
Now, Lord, I said, the Good Book says that Christians live in joy.
That’s true, he said, you need the joy to bear the pain and sorrow,
So do you still want to follow me? I said, Amen! – tomorrow.
Tomorrow, Lord, I’ll say it then, that’s when I’ll say Amen,
I need to get it clear, can I just run through that again?
You said I will need the joy, to bear the pain and sorrow,
Well, yes, I think I’ve got it straight, I’ll say, Amen – tomorrow.
He said, Look, I’m not asking you to spend an hour with me,
A quick salvation sandwich and a cup of sanctity,
The cost is you, not half of you, but every single bit.
Now tell me, will you follow me? I said, Amen! – I quit.
I’m very sorry, Lord, I said, I’d like to follow you,
But I don’t think religion is a manly thing to do.
He said, Forget religion then, and think about my Son,
And tell me if you’re man enough to do what he has done.
Are you man enough to see the need, and man enough to go,
Man enough to care for those whom no one wants to know,
Man enough to say the thing that people hate to hear,
To battle through Gethsemane in lonliness and fear.
And listen! Are you man enough to stand it at the end,
The moment of betrayal by the kisses of a friend,
Are you man enough to hold your tongue, and man enough to cry,
When the nails break your body – are you man enough to die?
Man enough to take the pain, and wear it like a crown,
Man enough to love the world and turn t upside down,
Are you man enough to follow me, I ask you once again.
I said, Oh Lord, I’m frightened, but I also said Amen.
Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen,
I said, Oh Lord, I’m frightened, but I also said, Amen.
Why I Started This Blog
It seems to me that the church's primary priority should be discipleship in order to best "Seek His Kingdom" and "Follow the Risen Christ".
It seems to me that this isn't even close to the priority of the church. In fact, it is practically non-existent in my circles.
Glenn Smith says that there is a cone of priority for pastors and that the top of the cone (the most time spent) is programming and the bottom of the cone (the least amount of time spent) is discipleship and evangelism. According to Glenn, the cone must be inverted.
Discipleship and Networking (which always has evangelism as it's point) must become my number one priority, including my own personal discipleship.
After years of consideration, I place discipleship into a grid of 4 areas, and all of these areas end up having an infinite depth.
1. Connecting with God (worship, prayer, Bible reading, journaling, listening)
2. Connecting with People (forgiveness, grace, love, hope, healing, marriage, parenting)
3. Connecting Locally (meeting the needs of your community)
4. Connecting Globally (meeting the needs of your world - at least one difficult place)
My areas are similar to many others. Bob Roberts' T-Life has been most influential. But perhaps it is too complex.
Each of the areas influence all of the other three areas.
As I blog, my hope is to inform my thoughts on discipleship with the following books.
1. The Simple Church by Thom Rainer and Eric Geiger
2. The Present Future by Reggie McNeil
3. The World is Flat by Thomas Friedman
4. Good to Great by Jim Collins
5. The Forgotten Ways by Alan Hirsch
It seems to me that this isn't even close to the priority of the church. In fact, it is practically non-existent in my circles.
Glenn Smith says that there is a cone of priority for pastors and that the top of the cone (the most time spent) is programming and the bottom of the cone (the least amount of time spent) is discipleship and evangelism. According to Glenn, the cone must be inverted.
Discipleship and Networking (which always has evangelism as it's point) must become my number one priority, including my own personal discipleship.
After years of consideration, I place discipleship into a grid of 4 areas, and all of these areas end up having an infinite depth.
1. Connecting with God (worship, prayer, Bible reading, journaling, listening)
2. Connecting with People (forgiveness, grace, love, hope, healing, marriage, parenting)
3. Connecting Locally (meeting the needs of your community)
4. Connecting Globally (meeting the needs of your world - at least one difficult place)
My areas are similar to many others. Bob Roberts' T-Life has been most influential. But perhaps it is too complex.
Each of the areas influence all of the other three areas.
As I blog, my hope is to inform my thoughts on discipleship with the following books.
1. The Simple Church by Thom Rainer and Eric Geiger
2. The Present Future by Reggie McNeil
3. The World is Flat by Thomas Friedman
4. Good to Great by Jim Collins
5. The Forgotten Ways by Alan Hirsch
Problems with Discipleship
This is from Jordon Cooper's blog, and following is Jordon's comment.
Discipleship
Willow Creek admits to getting it wrong.
People like Dallas Willard have been saying this for years, increased level of church activities do not produce disciples, it just produces people who spend more time at the church (and out of their communities where they could be making a redemptive difference). The reason we default to activities can be explained by Lyle Schaller in his book, Reflections of a Contrarian where he talks about the kind of statistics churches and denominations count. Because it is easy to count participation in activities, we count that and therefore do things to increase those stats. On the other hand it is really hard to quantify a person becoming a better disciple of Christ which in turn gets put aside. Especially when almost every snake oil salesmen (church growth consultant) is selling churches on the idea of church programs (again, see what Darryl has to say about that). Good for Willow Creek to come to grips and their mistakes and for sharing them with the rest of the church. I think the problem runs deeper than teaching more Bible reading and spiritual disciplines but at least the discussion is happening.
Discipleship
Willow Creek admits to getting it wrong.
In the Hawkins’ video he says, “Participation is a big deal. We believe the more people participating in these sets of activities, with higher levels of frequency, it will produce disciples of Christ.” This has been Willow’s philosophy of ministry in a nutshell. The church creates programs/activities. People participate in these activities. The outcome is spiritual maturity. In a moment of stinging honesty Hawkins says, “I know it might sound crazy but that’s how we do it in churches. We measure levels of participation.”
Having put all of their eggs into the program-driven church basket you can understand their shock when the research revealed that “Increasing levels of participation in these sets of activities does NOT predict whether someone’s becoming more of a disciple of Christ. It does NOT predict whether they love God more or they love people more.”
People like Dallas Willard have been saying this for years, increased level of church activities do not produce disciples, it just produces people who spend more time at the church (and out of their communities where they could be making a redemptive difference). The reason we default to activities can be explained by Lyle Schaller in his book, Reflections of a Contrarian where he talks about the kind of statistics churches and denominations count. Because it is easy to count participation in activities, we count that and therefore do things to increase those stats. On the other hand it is really hard to quantify a person becoming a better disciple of Christ which in turn gets put aside. Especially when almost every snake oil salesmen (church growth consultant) is selling churches on the idea of church programs (again, see what Darryl has to say about that). Good for Willow Creek to come to grips and their mistakes and for sharing them with the rest of the church. I think the problem runs deeper than teaching more Bible reading and spiritual disciplines but at least the discussion is happening.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)